~ the interview ~

Just what is your book Push Not the River about?

It's a novel based on the actual diary of a Polish countess in the late eighteenth century. Critics are calling it a Gone with the Wind in Poland.

How did you come to write this book?

In the mid 1970s I went to Los Angeles with the goal of screenwriting in mind. Not long after my arrival, a friend, John Stelnicki, suggested that I look at his ancestor's diary that he had translated from the Polish. With every page I was drawn back two hundred years into her incredibly exciting life. The obstacles in her personal life were as mythical as those facing Poland at that time, and so her story became a kind of metaphor for the country's story. It was only later, in my research, that I came to realize how phenomenal it was that the years of her personal struggles coincided so perfectly with the tumultuous years of the Third of May Constitution, one of Europe's first attempts at democracy. Along the way, I have felt Countess Anna's spirit on my shoulder. I never doubted that the story would come to fruition.

Do you have a particular interest in Polish culture and history?

I certainly do now and have had for these last 25 years that these real people have brewed inside me, coming forth eventually as dimensional characters. I've had countless readers tell me that reading the book has given them a good sense of the history behind the Constitution and done so in an entertaining way. By the way, both German and Polish translations are out this year as well.

How much research did you do for the book and how long did it take you to write it?

I did a great deal of research because I started out with no knowledge of Poland, and that research spanned the 25 years it took to bring out the book. I did much library research at the beginning although there is so much more available in English now. I worked also with the Polish Museum of America in Chicago and Jan Lorys and his staff were very helpful.

Have you been to Poland?

Before publishing the book, I felt I had to go to these places I was writing about to get a sense of setting. I traveled to Poland in the summer of 1999 and it was the experience of a lifetime. Going to the sites I wrote about gave me a clear feeling and picture for the time and place. The Royal Castle at Warsaw has been restored to what it was when Anna visited there so many years ago, making it possible to better convey the wonderfully rich ambiance of those rooms. Other settings in the book include Praga, Sochaczew, Krakow, Czestochowa, and Halicz in what is now the Ukraine.

Upon arriving in Warsaw, I felt compelled to walk to the suburb of Praga and the bridge that leads from it to the Old City. It was here that the Russians came down on the citizens of Praga, forcing them to flee, Anna among them, across the river to the walled city. At that moment, on the new bridge where the old bridge had stood, I could feel the history all about me. Being there on the site Anna had written about so many years before, the site where she - and the nation - came face to face with death was a chilling and poignant moment for me.

How did you come by the Polish proverbs and wycinanki (folk papercuts) that serve as breaks between the book sections?

Some of the proverbs, as well as some of the folklore, were in the diary, so in my research I kept an eye out for more. The wycinanki were a last minute touch that seemed just right. I ran across a small book of designs by Frances Drwal [now deceased] and she generously allowed me to use a number of them. Having decided on dividing up the eight sections of the book with the papercuts, it seemed right to use a proverb with each papercut, and together they provide a very effective and eye-catching cultural transition from one section into the next.

What is the relationship between the current owner of the diary and the Countess?

Countess Anna Maria Berezowska is John Stelnicki's direct ancestor. Although many of Anna's succeeding generations thought the diary shocking because of Zofia's "scandalous" diary-within-a-diary excerpts, they were intelligent enough to know this was a historical document not to be destroyed. And I have always felt that Anna wanted her story to be told, and that somehow I was chosen to do it.

How much of the story is authentic? How much did you need to embellish or change for artistic purposes?

A hard question! One reviewer loved everything but was upset that I didn't include an "Author's Note" spelling everything out, fact or fiction. I just didn't want to do that. I wanted this woman's life to be of one fabric in the reader's mind. She wasn't legend, like Arthur, she was a real person.

I will say this much: I did employ almost all of the events and much of the dialogue, fleshing out character, motivation, settings, and the like. When the story moved to a multiple point-of-view, I had to imagine the inner workings of the minds of three additional characters. I'm certain that many people will think that some of the most incredible scenes were created by me, but most of these were in the diary - or it wouldn't have interested me in the first place. In reality, many of my scenes are more expository and mundane.

What has been the reaction from American Polonia?

Strongly positive. And a vindication of the years I have persisted. I had been told by hundreds of editors, publishers, and agents that there is no market for a historical novel set in Poland. This deepened my resolve to prove them wrong, and I think the time has come. The reviews have been very positive. Initially, the school where I teach gave me a book signing, and one week later, on the same night, two leaders in separate Polish communities - one man and one woman - called to tell me they were so impressed and inspired by the book that they wanted to host signing/discussion events of their own. They did so and a ripple effect continues. Although they thought it important to get the word out to the community at large, it was that night that I knew I had touched Polish hearts of men and women.

Have there been any particularly gratifying remarks?

Best-selling author Piers Anthony agreed to read my book before publication, but he gravely warned me three times that he puts his recommendation on few books because most of what he reads does not rise to his expectations. I waited patiently and nervously for two weeks for his verdict. When his letter came, it began, "I have just finished reading Push Not the River and I am profoundly impressed..." He was impressed enough to mentor me through the publication process.

Since then there have been many remarks, but the enthusiasm of one woman in Albany, New York, has led to her organizing a Push Not the River tour of Poland next October that will go to all the cities in the book. Now, that will be very exciting!

What kind of promotion have you been doing in the Polish community?

I'm very happy to address Polish culture clubs and attend the festivals. In some cases the community has reached out to me. Anna Chrypinski, the librarian for the American Council for Polish Culture, contacted me to let me know how much she enjoyed the book. She read it in two days! She's now organizing a lecture tour that will take me coast to coast.

Do you plan on writing another book?

I am. Even before this edition came out, St. Martin's Press signed me to write a sequel, so I'm well into that project. [this second book has since been published] The surviving characters will move into the Napoleonic period.

Why are critics comparing Push Not the River to Gone with the Wind?

Like Margaret Mitchell's story, mine is a mainstream historical novel that transcends ethnicity and setting. It also has two strong women characters whose stories play out amidst the themes of love, war, loyalty, and treason. And at the end of both novels, not only are the characters changed forever, but the nations are also never to be the same.

What is the significance of the title?

It's a proverb. "Don't push the river; it will flow of its own accord."

James Conroyd Martin, author of Push Not the River is a longtime English teacher and Department Chairman at Marian Catholic High School in Chicago Heights, Illinois. He holds degrees from St. Ambrose and DePaul Universities.

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